DIY Art School Part 5 (Workspace and Equipment) – Draftsmen S2E08

Marshall: [Marshall whistling] Sorry. Can't
get those notes exactly right when whistling. Stan: I don't know if I can forgive you. Are
you recording? Charlie: Yes. Marshall: We are recording. We are rolling
then, huh? Got to make sure my – everything looks right. Stan: I mean, they are all watching you. They
are looking at you right now. Charlie: The world sees you. Marshall: We are ready to start then, aren't
we? [Intro] Marshall: I am Marshall Vandruff. This is
the Draftsmen Podcast which I share with… Stan: Stan Prokopenko. And we are continuing… Marshall: You supposed to – when I give you
the ball, you are supposed to run with it not say, uh, what is this ball you gave me? Stan: I said my name and then – Marshall: Yeah, but… Stan: I passed it right back at you.

Marshall: Okay. Well, then, I got it. Welcome
to the Draftsmen Podcast, I am Marshall Vandruff. Stan: I am Stan Prokopenko. Marshall: And we are going to talk about art
school as project. This will be the last of our bits of advice for those of you who are
not going to do art school the traditional route. You are going to try to take it into
your own hands, and we are going to address the issue of workspace, equipment, and resources,
that you miss out on if you don't go to art school.

How are you going to do those on your
own? Stan: What if you just don't go. Marshall: I am not going to go there. Forget
that. Stan: Yeah, screw that place. Marshall: That expensive Cintiq tablet and
that free air conditioning. Stan: Yeah. Who needs that stuff? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: I am going to stay at my parents’

Marshall: What do you do? Well, you stay at
your parents’ house and set up you set up your business there, yeah. Stan: Yeah, there you go. Some of that is
solved by staying at your parents’ house. Air conditioning. Marshall: I got started at my parents’ house. Stan: Me too. Marshall: You did too. Many a person has. Stan: True. Marshall: Okay, well. Stan: Garages are a big thing, right? Marshall: Garages are where great inventions
have happened. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Garages are where careers have begun.
Garages are where long hours wasted discussing politics have happened. We are here to talk
about workspace and equipment and resources. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: How much equipment do you really
need to succeed as an artist? Stan: It depends on what kind of artist you
want to be. But not much. A pencil at least.

Marshall: A pencil, and a paper, and an eraser,
are a good way to start. Stan: It's a good start by the minimum, the
absolute minimum, right? Can you start with a rock? Marshall: You could. But let's just say we
are going to start with a mechanical pencil, paper, and an eraser. Do you know that that
could keep you busy solidly for a year? Stan: More than a year. Marshall: Most of my classes in the colleges
when I have the materials list which is required, so everybody knows what material list…

is something to draw with, something to draw on, and something to erase with. And I recommend
mechanical pencils for the most part and I recommend just bond paper for the… Stan: How many smart asses have you had that
brought like a crayon and a newspaper? Marshall: There haven't been any so far. Stan: There haven't been any? Marshall: But if there were, that might be
the creative student. The point is this, to understand perspective, and anatomy, and cross
contours, and rendering, and those basics, all you need is pencil, paper, and maybe an
eraser. Stan: It is a lot cheaper, even if you want
to be a painter, it is a lot cheaper to learn the fundamentals of drawing with a pencil
not with paint. Marshall: Okay. Stan: And in order to paint you need to know
how to draw. There is so much overlap.

Some things are kind of silly to learn with paint
like perspective. Marshall: Right. Stan: You know? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Anatomy even. Marshall: Yes. Stan: It is a little silly to learn that – Even
shading. Marshall: Well, yeah. And we talked about
that back when we were dealing with – somebody asked – there was a voicemail. Painting before
drawing, drawing before painting. And we gave them our reasons. But let's take it to the
next thing. With painting, paints can get really expensive. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: However, if you simply start with
wash, if you simply start with walnut ink, if you start with – Stan: Watercolor. Way cheaper than oil paint.
Yeah. Marshall: If you really come down to it, just
coffee or mud. But the point is a stain, a wash, cheap gouache, you can learn a ton about
massing lights and darks, you can learn a ton about lighting and rendering with that. Stan: Yeah. And you can practice being comfortable
with a brush and putting it on canvas with just a burnt umber pick out type of thing.
Or burnt umber and white.

Both very cheap colors. Marshall: Right. And very permanent. Stan: Yes. Marshall: Burnt umbers and burnt siennas. Stan: Yeah. You don't need to pay $30 a tube
for those things. Marshall: But then, when you start to do big
oil paints and you are going to use the cobalt blues and the series fives and those kind
of things, that is where it starts to get expensive and so it starts to run into the
hundreds of dollars. So, what have we solved? How much equipment do you need? I guess, if
we are going to make this practical this is all…

Stan: I think what we are saying is, if you
are just starting, don't assume you need to be using all the same stuff you see the professionals
using. If you see racecar drivers racing with half a million dollar cars with these engines
that are the best in the world, that doesn't mean they learn to drive in that car. Marshall: You learn to drive your parent’s
car. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: And see if you can get away from
the cops. Stan: A 30 year old civic that barely runs
but it does. Marshall: Okay. I am going to take this to
the extreme for us. Yeah. Stan: If we went from drawing to painting
and I am going to go into one other discipline that makes the – well, again, Steve Martin
stand in front of a group of people and try to entertain them and that doesn't cost anything
except for whatever you are going to wear.

The basic skills of a person who is going
to be a champion storyteller, even if they are going to be a filmmaker that does 100
million dollar films, the basic skills can be learned with nothing but pencil and paper
in one year. And that all of the work is really done in training the mind to understand what
makes a compelling story. So, it does not take money to get training, basic fundamental
training, to speak of. Stan: Yeah. And there is that, a stereotype
of beginner students focused on the supplies and not on the skills. The most common question,
and it is like people put this on their shirts, is what kind of pencil do you use? What color
did you just mix? You go to a workshop and that is the first question I was going to

And so, stop it. Marshall: Well, we should throw in a caveat
here; teaching watercolor for a number of years. Windsor & Newton's watercolors and
Daniel Smith's watercolors they are really good watercolors. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: But here is what I want to mention
about it, I am going to go back to what the point we are making; they can be expensive
watercolors but there's these, unfortunately, Windsor & Newton has a line of student grade
watercolors call Cotman's which was wrong because Cotman was a great water colorist
and they used his name to name the cheap watercolors. But those Cotman watercolors don't have nearly
as much pigment. There is not even nearly as good as the big ones. But I had a student, Marlo, who he could take
the Cotman watercolors and he could do little comp studies that were so gorgeous because
of his decisions. And that is where the training happens. I remember an audio engineer who
was a teacher saying, equipment is very important but a good audio engineer can make it sound
good with two tin cans and string.

Because it is your choices that make the difference. Stan: And I got a lot to say about that topic.
There are some dangers in practicing too much with cheap things. But I want to do it for
a separate episode on that. Marshall: Okay. Right. Stan: Look forward to that. Marshall: Yeah. I am eager. Stan: My dad is Igor.

Marshall: I haven't been drinking much of
this coffee and I am feeling kind of rocketed at just at the energy that is going through
my system looking forward to it. Now, let's shift gears here. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Because this thing about drawing
with a pencil on paper and painting with cheap paints and learning how to tell a story, what
about when you are going to do digital art which takes equipment that is expensive? What
do you do with that? Stan: Digital art? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: So, you are saying like you need a Cintiq
to… Marshall: I am poor. Everybody is working
in the digital room to do all of this digital art. That is how I am going to be employed.
How can I afford that? Stan: How can you afford these tablets and
stuff? Marshall: What do I do? Yeah. Stan: Again, you don't need to start with
the really expensive stuff. You don't need that 32 inch Cintiq.

You can get the $50 tablet
and it's good enough. Marshall: Is it really? Stan: It is. Marshall: A $50 tablet is good enough? Stan: Yeah. Now it is. Marshall: Now it is. It didn't use to be about
ten years ago, like five years ago. Stan: No. But now, the $50 tablet is better
than the good tablet or probably equal to, with less bugs to the one 15 years ago.

Marshall: Okay. I didn't know. Okay. Stan: Scott Flanders still has just as little
Intuos. Marshall: 4? Stan: I don't know which Intuos it is but
it's not a display screen. It's a tablet where you draw on the side then you look at a separate
monitor, right? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: That is one of the big leaps that happen
in digital art is that it went from tablet to display monitor where you can draw right
on it. But you don't need it. Scott Flanders, professional digital artist at home, still
uses a tablet. And it is an Intuos, the one he has had for a decade. Marshall: I know. I still have my old Intuos
4 and I felt embarrassed about it. And Vance Kovacs was doing a demo for students and this
was stuff that he is working on for big-budget films and he was working with an Intuos 3
and it didn't bother him at all, he was like 'oh, yeah, I didn't even know that's what
it was".

Stan: I was using an Intuos 2 when I started
Proko. This was like six-seven years ago. Marshall: This is becoming competitive, now
we're gonna say, and I know a great artist who was using an Intuos 1… Stan: No, I didn't have Intuos, I had a mouse. Marshall: Now we gonna have to go back to
it, and I know someone who did great art by using… Stan: My mouse wasn't even plugged in. [Laughter] Charlie: I had a broken mouse and I sold it
to an art museum and it's a modern art…

Stan: But no, seriously, I looked it up on
Amazon, for 65 bucks you could get a Wacom Intuos and it comes with three programs. Marshall: Which are? Stan: I don't, but I know they have Manga
studio, or what is it called? Clip studio, Painter and then one other one I don't remember,
and their licenses for like two years… For $65! Marshall: That's great! Stan: It really isn't that expensive. If you
think about it, $65 is the same as buying like three sketchbooks nowadays. If you think,
oh, three sketchbooks or software on a tablet, you may immediately think, oh, that's gonna
be way more expensive than three sketchbooks. But it's not, sketchbooks are also expensive. Marshall: So, you're making the pitch that
the cost of digital, at least for accessibility, has come down. Stan: Yeah. There's also the thing where you
know, well, but you still need a computer. That's expensive. Marshall: Well, you want me to tell my story? Stan: Hold on, I'll try to – I'm on a path. Marshall: Go ahead, go on your path. Stan: You don't need a computer…

Marshall: You just went to the end of the
story. [Laughter] I was kind of hoping I could give
some build up… Stan: There's no plot here… Marshall: OK… Stan: Now, the question and answer, no development Marshall: You don't need a computer, what
do you need? Stan: Well, I think Wacom now makes one that
you connect to your phone. Everyone has a phone. Marshall: Everyone has a phone. Stan: Yeah, I think it's only Android, and
I haven't tried it yet, I will soon. But on the box, it says you can connect it to your
Android. But the fact that it says that on the box means in a few years it'll work really

So, if it doesn't work well yet, that means this type of thing is in development
and it will be common for you to just use your phone and use the Photoshop and the Procreate.
You know, all the apps that are on your phone and use your phone as the processor not your
computer, and connect it to the Bluetooth display tablet and your phones in your pocket
and all you have is just this thing. Marshall: Okay. Stan: The alternative is iPad, but that is
expensive. Charlie: You could always do like a Surface
laptop. Stan: The Microsoft one? I've tried their
tablets and I actually don't like the pressure feeling of it. Charlie: Oh yeah… Stan: Yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm just using
your all cuz I know Glen Vilppu really likes the Surface tablets. Marshall: Huh… Stan: At least that's what I've heard. But
like, I've tried them and they're way worse than those Cintiq to me.

Marshall: Yeah well, that's where you got
personal preference; some people like a steel string guitar, some people like nylon string.
Everybody's got their own thing. Stan: Yeah. It seems like it was made for
like writing instead of drawing where you could tilt and there's really sensitive pressure. Marshall: I'm wondering whether I ought to
pull one of those "let me tell you what it was like in my day" stories. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Let me tell you what it was like
in my day… Okay first of all, most of my career happened pre-digital, and it was in
the early 90s. Stan: We know. Marshall: Pardon. Stan: We know that. Marshall: Yeah. It was airbrush and ballpoint
pen and paintbrush and all that stuff and so, if the courier came pick up the illustration
in the morning and take it to the art director, if anything happened to that original art,
there was no other record of it.

And that was a big deal. Also, you could not finish a job and move
things around. You'd have to repaint the whole painting or even have to splice out the board.
It was a big deal. And digital was starting to happen, and I was doing – I did some digital
jobs even on a school computer, but I didn't have a set-up because setups were expensive
and I asked one of my clients, I said "would you prefer that I was doing these digitally
in Photoshop" and Bonnie said "Marshall, I wish you were doing these digitally because
it would save us having to scan them because everything's going digital now".

It was 1994 in November. There had been some
fire at someplace that had made RAM expensive. I bought a Macintosh 8180 that cost $5,000
for the computer and $5,000 for the RAM. Stan: Oh, an extra $5000? Marshall: Yes, a 128MB of RAM. Nobody had
that. These computers had two, four and eight megabytes and if you were really rich, you
had 32, and so it cost $5,000 for a hundred twenty-eight megabytes of RAM and that was
so little RAM that when I was working on some jobs, every time you'd touch the brush, it
would go brrrrrrr, you know, you have to wait for it to do its calculations.

And a monitor,
big NEC monitor and no scanner, and no printer and a Wacom tablet, and I had to have people
help me set it all up. Stan: Wait, in 94? Marshall: 94. Stan: What was the tablet back then? Marshall: It was a Wacom tablet. I don't even
think they used the word Intuos back then. Stan: It was pre-Intuos. Marshall: I think it was, yeah. Now, here's
the thing, Photoshop, that was the year that Photoshop added layers. You didn't even have
layers in the first iterations of Photoshop. But here's the thing, when you added layers,
every layer you add doubled the amount of space that it took for Stan: Of course it does. Marshall: And so, it was really – but the
point is, I had to have this equipment and I put down a cashier's check for over $14,000
to have it delivered that week, but I had billings of over $20,000 in that next month
because all my clients were "Marshall is digital now, so we can have him do this stuff and
it's gonna save us money".

And it paid itself back immediately. But it was also a major
learning because there was no internet back then. How do you learn this equipment? I hired
tutors, I had to have a professional calibrator come in because what you saw on your monitor
and what printed were two completely different things. Manuals, manuals, manuals, manuals, so just
constantly learning and that was what it was like, not that long ago, you know, 25 years
ago so now, you're telling me, your phone… Stan: That thing that's in your kitchen with
the power cord, and that – you can only go like 10 feet away from. Marshall: Yeah, the coil cord… Stan: Yeah, that thing is better than your
$14,000 set up.

Marshall: How did I do for telling a personal
story? Stan: That was really fun. Marshall: Thank you. Stan: And this is back when you had that beautiful
mane of hair? Because that's how I was imagining you that whole time. Marshall: Now, this was about the time when
my mane – one of my friends pointed out my, mane of hair at that time was starting to
slide… Stan: Oh man! Marshall: It was up here and then it started
to slip and it went down here… Stan: No, I'm gonna keep my current image. Marshall: Yeah, keep your current image. Charlie: I' gonna play it with sound effect
as it slides up you… Marshall: All of the subtext of this, what
we're saying here is that we live in a great time so that even with the expensive digital
stuff, it's not that expensive anymore. It's becoming more and more accessible. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Okay. And everybody already knew
that. Stan: Oh, they did? I don't know if they did.
Maybe they do but they don't want to know and they want that Cintiq and that's their
excuse of why they're not starting is that oh, I need to get that expensive stuff first.

Marshall: Yeah. Gosh, if you want an inspiring
story, I don't know it well but J.K. Rowling, or J.K Rowling, the Harry Potter one… Stan: Yeah. Marshall: If you read her story, I think she
was having to go in and… Stan: Coffee shop. Marshall: Coffee shop, yeah, and – Charlie: Writing on napkin… Marshall: Was it a typewriter or -? It wasn't
somebody who made their hit novel by actually renting where you had to put quarters in the
typewriter at the library to make it so the typewriter would work. Stan: What? Seriously? Marshall: It might have been before her time.
Yeah. Marshall: They did their first novel, and
the novel was the – Stan: Public libraries? Marshall: Yeah, public libraries used to have
typewriters that you could put a quarter in and that way you'd rent it for an hour or
whatever it was. But somebody turned their life around because they had access to a typewriter
that they couldn't afford at home. So, these story should be inspiring to say with limitation.
Also, wasn't that one of the basic principles of creativity, is to create a limitation that
make us so that you have to think it through in new ways, "this is my limitation, I don't
have access to all that.

How can I get ready for it". Stan: We were talking about 1917 during lunch…
There's a huge limitation, right? Marshall: You know about it now then. Stan: I read it. You told me not to read about
it before I watch it and the first thing I did is I went on Google. Marshall: Yeah, so you're just one of those.
So, I know how to manipulate now. Stan: It makes you curious? Marshall: Don't light that match and throw
it in the gas. Charlie: Reverse psychology. Stan: Yeah… Don't look it up Stan… Marshall: Yeah. Stan: All that. Marshall: You're easy. Stan: Okay. I might not even get a chance
to see it, I have a baby. So what else does college provide people with? Marshall: Let me tell you something college
provides people with… In the summer, when it gets ninety to a hundred degrees, there
are few things nicer than going into a room that is air-conditioned down to 72 degrees
and, when you do that at home with a local air conditioner, you're surprised by the bill
at the end of the month and if you have central air conditioning, you were surprised to find
it was $400 a month for that and you say "well, we got to cut back".

And so, you cut back
and you're still sweating, but you were a little cooler and it's $200 a month for that
and when the school covers for that, it is so nice to just go there and be in the air-conditioning. Stan: Yeah. There's also heating… Not everyone
lives in Southern California. Marshall: Oh, that's right. There's also heating
in the cold weather. Stan: You're also heating hen its cold. That's
not really a problem if you're renting, right? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Do you have to pay for air conditioned
heat if you rent? Oh OK. Marshall: I've always had to pay it, yeah. Stan: I didn't know that. Marshall: That's an electricity bill. You
didn't know that? Because you've got a solar roof, right? Everything's free. Stan: It's not free, I had to pay for solar

Marshall: But still, once you got it and while
it's working, old Mr. Sun is right there saying "yeah"… Stan: Because I live in Southern California
and I got that sun beating down. Marshall: Oh well, hey, let's say a person
lives in a place where they don't even have air conditioning and they don't even have
heating and they just live in a place where the temperatures are rough and they're saying
"I want to forge a career as an artist". What advice do you have for them Stan? Stan: It's not always bad to be uncomfortable.

Marshall: Mm-hmm, let's talk about this… Stan: It's just you hear stories like this
all the time where people have to deal with hardships and that acts as fuel to work harder
and to get to a place better. What's that movie with Will Smith? The Pursuit of Happyness?
It just shows – it's kind of like the American dream movie where he's in a really difficult
place, you know, he's got a kid and he has to work but nothing's working out and he worked
so hard and eventually it gets out of it and he's successful. Marshall: Okay. Stan: But it can act as fuel like I said. Marshall: It can. Stan: You know Casey Neistat? Marshall: No, who's Casey Neistat. Stan: He kind of revolutionized or changed
the vlogging feel. Like everybody just started copying him as soon as he started vlogging,
so he kind of created the current vlogging style. But in one of his vlogs he was talking
about his history when he was probably late teens. Oh yeah, I think it was high school
even. He had a kid and he was living with his girlfriend and he was working as a dishwasher
at a seafood restaurant and he hated it, and you have a kid.

He doesn't have any money
to do anything that he wants to do, he just has to make enough money to support his girlfriend
and pay for all this stuff. He says that every single time he was at this
restaurant washing dishes, he would be thinking and planning how he is going to get out of
this. Marshall: Just to escape prison. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: And that's how he made it happen? Stan: Yeah. Marshall: He got out by figuring I can use
the internet, I can perform on YouTube, I can do this… Stan: Well, yeah. I mean, it wasn't that he
just like all of a sudden became a vlogger after that.

He was a filmmaker first and he
did a lot of other stuff. He was a filmmaker first. I just think that you know, being too
comfortable can just make you lazy. Marshall: It's true. Stan: It's like, what am I working for? I
like where I'm at. I'm just gonna keep going with this. Marshall: There are advantages to comfort
and there are disadvantages to it. This is similar to Stevie Ray Vaughan's inciting incident.
There is a wonderful less than an hour documentary, Legends, narrated by Sean Penn of the story
of Stevie Ray Vaughn. He had been a musician, he had been playing in clubs all night and
then having to go to school and sleep through classes and he worked at some place that – a
fast-food place or something and he fell in a vat of grease. Stan: Like boiling grease? Marshall: No, that was the thing that made
him say… Stan: I'm just wondering how bad this story

Marshall: I think he was a teenager at the
time and he decided I'm done with this and I'm gonna pursue the music and he pursued
the music at great cost and great discomfort and that's why his story is worth paying attention
to is that you see someone who is aching to be a professional musician and the world is
not meeting him and the world is not meeting him. And year after year, the world is not
meeting him and then the world finally responds. And it's inspiring. I have watched that thing 20 times with students.
It's a great inspirational story and one of the key incidents was that I hate this job,
I've got to get out of it and this is the only way I see to get out. So, you're gonna
take a chance on the jailbreak.

You didn't have that, did you? Stan: I mean, I feel weird saying I do because
I'm definitely more privileged, you know? Marshall: You are. Stan: Yeah. And so, trying to be like oh,
yeah, really tough… Marshall: But did you have it in any way?
I mean, even those micro ways? Stan: I had those feelings of like "god, I
really hate this. I need to work to get out of it". You know, my parents owned the Quiznos… Marshall: Your parents owned the Quiznos? Stan: Yeah. Marshall: I didn't know that. Stan: They did. Marshall: Those were good sandwiches. Stan: Oh, I loved them. Marshall: I did too. I mentioned their competitor
once… Should we go there. Stan: Probably. Marshall: My friend said uh, "old socks".
That was his description of Quiznos competitor. Quiznos was a place to have a good… Stan: Yeah, Quiznos had the superior sandwich.
But – yeah, and so, I had to work there because I was still living with the parents, so they're
like "well, you're gonna have to help somehow, so go make some sandwiches".

I was like "all
right". And yeah, of course I hated it. The whole time I was there, I was trying to – I
was thinking about the animation project I'm working on at home and what I'm gonna do to
make it better and when I got home, that first thing I did was hop on the computer and just
start working throughout the night. Charlie: First job as an artist wasn a sandwich
artist. Stan: I was good. Marshall: You were a good sandwich artist? Stan: I was a good sandwich artist. I spread
things evenly. I'm not one of those assholes that put everything in the middle and there's
nothing on the outsides. Marshall: So we should… Stan: God, I hate that. Marshall: I understand, you care. Stan: I care about my sandwiches.

Marshall: Maybe we should subvert the whole
Proko Empire so that you'll go back to sandwich making and reconnect with your roots and give
us good sandwiches. You can train Cooper. Stan: Yeah ,he's gonna have to make good sandwiches.
Actually, I'm making him sandwiches now. Marshall: Okay, so the Quiznos thing was a
little of that for you? Stan: Yeah, it was and I definitely felt that
way. I mean, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't like falling in a tub of grease, but it was
something I didn't like.

So, I think just – the point is, some discomfort is good at
that prime time in your life when you need motivation to become something. The drive
towards comfort is good. If you get comfort too early, you become used to it and you don't
develop the habits to work hard. If then later on in your life you achieve
comfort, you already know what it's like to have to work hard and you got those habits
and you probably keep – you know, Bill Gates still works really hard, right? He's still
trying to fix problems all the time, working on stuff. He doesn't need to, he's very comfortable. Marshall: Right. Stan: It's because he worked really hard when
he was young to make something happen and he just – that became him. Marshall: Yeah, we've spoken about that, about
creating things, making things more difficult than they need to be in the early stages in
order to get the initial strength that keeps you going. And this is a way of taking – it's
not creating these troubles, it's that I've got these difficulties, why not put them to
my advantage and learn to fight against them.

Stan: Yeah, you don't try to make yourself
more uncomfortable. Just try to realize that this can be fuel. Use it as fuel. Marshall: Yeah. Michelangelo, da Vinci and Donatello were
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better today. Marshall: There was a documentary I watched
recently called An Empire of Their Own about these immigrants who came from mostly Poland
and Russia, that came out to the United States at the time that the pogroms were persecuting
them and then eventually came to Hollywood and and invented Hollywood. And one of the
commentators said that these were tough people. They were people who came from really deprived
circumstances, who when they came out here had this work ethic and this motivation to
make things better. OK, now, you're saying that means you get used to working in the
sweaty environment or in the chilly environment, you get used to working with the bad materials,
you get used to working with deprivation of some sort, you still rise to the occasion,
you rise stronger.

Stan: Yeah, don't let it defeat you if you
don't have all this stuff. Figure it out. I mean, your Tajikistan, what's that guy's
name again? Marshall: Oh, Jama from Tajikistan. He is
an icon of that. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: He came from Tajikistan and he rose
above everybody else. There were still some really great students in that bunch. Here's something about this difficult circumstances;
the fact is, in fact, there is a course I'm listening to right now on leadership. I think
it's Michael Roberto, and he talks about research that shows that people think well, limitations
of time can make you more creative and limitations of difficulty can make you more creative.
And some research has shown a lot of those limitations make you less creative because
you go into panic mode and you don't consider all of your options.

There comes a point where some deprivation
works against you… What are some of the ones that you see – are there any that you
see that hey, yeah, this is something you kind of do need? Stan: Well, there's the workspace. You know,
college does provide you with a place to do things. Marshall: And you almost have to have a place. Stan: Yeah, you do. Marshall: But you don't have to have a place,
but you almost do. Stan: That one I feel like is… To me, it's
really important to have my space where I can go and focus on things, where I am not
distracted because I've always had that, that's one thing that living in my parents house,
I was provided because of that.

Now, if I'm working at the office and there's
too much going on or I just need to step out, I'll go to Starbucks, if I want to just get
out and have my own space and just use their Wi-Fi to work on a script. Marshall: But that becomes your office, it's
your office… Stan: Oh, yeah. Marshall: That's even have been a trend, isn't
it? You know, the portable office. Stan: Yeah. And there's co-working spaces
that are pretty cheap. Marshall: Yeah. Let me mention one of my students
from the Community College, Donald Kirby, who never had a car and who took the bus everywhere
he went. He even took the bus long distances to meet us for field trips, and because he
took the bus, he had a sketchbook with him and he drew, and drew, and drew… He also
became a good observer of people. That was an example of somebody who was using
the limitation to his advantage. How many people go out and look at other people on
the bus and do sketches of them so that you go with that cafe to character kind of? Stan: Like James Gurney…

He documents that
all in his YouTube channel and he goes out and draws people and talks to them. Marshall: Yeah, the portable studio. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: The fact that I don't need to have
a studio at home so much, I'm going to make my sketchbook my studio, I'm gonna make the
coffee shop, the bus, the – wherever is convenient. Stan: And often after he draws them, then
he'll walk up to them, like, "look I drew". Charlie: And what are you gonna do about it? Stan: No he's having a conversation with them
and them – it means more than just the drawing.

I think sometimes they like sign it. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: I don't know, I made that up. Marshall: Let me mention my situation at the
house that my dad built: when I was six years old, my dad built a house that he had spent
three years on and it was just the most wonderful house. I was raised in a privileged environment;
4,000 square-foot house, upstairs with Studios, recording studio, art studio, all that kind
of stuff. We built those as we wanted them; "hey, wouldn't
it be nice to have a place we could record or that we could draw on…

My friends can
come over". But one of the disadvantages of being raised in Chien and Eleanor's home is
that my mom was sociable, and we had people over all day and all night! You could come
over there at 2:00 in the morning and there's gonna be social stuff going on because there's
four boys in this house and I got to where, when I wanted to be an artist, I did not want
to be constantly around people.

That was what really led to, we start work at 10 o'clock
at night with my community college friends who'd come over and we stay up til 6-7-8 in
the morning working in that studio through the night and that became our little Enclave. But I found that when I was in such a social
hub that I started to dislike being around a lot of people. It made me unsocial. I got
branded in my family as the unsociable guy. And to this day, I just kind of like to have
a place that I go and huddle alone and then go out into the foray and back and forth. But the privacy thing was a big several year
ordeal with me, that was solved by… I did have space, but it's like where will you ever
escape into privacy in that space when everybody's all over the place? It would happen late at
night. Stan: Was it like a nightclub? Marshall: It was it was a social club.

time we had over a hundred and fifty people there at that house. My mom used to do big
parties. Stan: What was the event? Was it like a birthday
party? Marshall: There were a number of things; they
had social groups, church groups, business – my parents were self-employed. My dad was
self-employed. So yeah, everything what's going on there, and it was exciting. It was
exciting when I was younger. It was not exciting when I was trying to be an artist and there
was never any privacy around that place. Stan: How big is this house? Marshall: 4,000 square feet. Stan: OK. Marshall: And it was a – well, I don't want
to get into the house but the house was great.

[Laughter] the mythology of that house, people
who know me and knew me back at that house and knew my parents, we all have stories about
how much went on around there. It was just a major hub. Stan: How many bedrooms? Marshall: Five bedrooms I guess. Stan: Wow! How many bathrooms? How many kitchens?
Three-car Garage? Marshall: Four bathrooms. Stan: Three-car Garage? Marshall: No, it was to-car garage. Stan: Two-car garage? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Psss… Poor people. Marshall: You want to ask me whether it had
a shake shingle roof or a tile roof? Stan: I don't, OK. Charlie: Can we display the blue prints? Marshall: I loved that house so much that
I will figure – I want to make enough money to rebuild this house and I asked my dad… Stan: You loved it so much you had to destroy
it? Marshall: No, I mean, I wanted to build my
own version of it. Stan: Oh, you wanted to build another one? Marshall: By the time I moved out of there,
it was a 27 year old house and it was – Stan: Oh, OK.

Marshall: I want to build my own because it
was such a perfect design. I asked my dad "do you have the plans for it?", "nooo, I
threw those away a long time ago". "You gotta be kidding me dad! This was your final masterpiece
of a house and you threw"… Stan: Can you draw the plans? Why was it so
great? Marshall: Because he consolidated every square
foot of that place. Underneath the stairway, he figured there's space under there, he turned
it into a cubby hole that was carpeted so that when we were kids we could camp out in
there you know, it's sorta like a – Stan: That's pretty standard now.

Marshall: It is pretty standard now, but he
was innovating on – he would deliberate for a year or three to figure how can I make use
of every square foot of this place and it was just – it was really thought through.
And in my midlife crisis, part of my midlife crisis, I was up all night for a couple nights
and one night when I could not sleep, I stayed up all night and went through every square
foot of that house in my imagination figuring on the other side of this wall was that…
I realized I knew the house inside and out because of having lived there for twenty years
and also having kind of you know, grieved the loss of it.

And kind of going back to
it, this reminds me that I come from that place. But this has nothing to do with draftsmen
unless we start to try to fit it to blueprints… Stan: We love with you so much… Marshall: Thank you. Stan: We want to know more about you. Marshall: OK [Chuckles]. Charlie: That was a fun story. Marshall: Thank you. Stan: We love you Marshall. #weloveMarshall. Marshall: Oh, come on! Stan: Tells us your favorite Marshall screenshot
from the Draftsmen Podcast. Marshall: You know when you scrub through
a video, you can get all these really bizarre looking faces. Stan: Yeah, favorite screenshot of Marshall,
#weloveMarshall. I see my face paused on everyone's computer all the time and I'm like "Oh God!
What…". Marshall: Do you collect favorites? Stan: No, we don't actually take a screenshot
of it, it's just that they you know, they're editing a video, it's me…. You know, of
course. Marshall: So it's like let's have some fun
with Stan's face. Charlie: We're having time, we've landed on
a bizarre shot and we screenshot it so we can use it for a thumbnail.

Marshall: Yeah. Stan: OK [Chuckles]. Marshall: I don't know whether we want to
turn this into a trend. Anyway, where are we? Stan: There's also that home away from home. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Being able to separate work from family
or from your social life. I mean, so, I worked from home for a very large part of my short
life. One of the disadvantages there is that there's no stop time… Your desk is there
and then your bed is right next to it. And so, you could just live for a long time going
from your bed to your desk and it's all just a mix and you can end up just working all
the time because your work is in the same room. That could be good but it's also pretty bad.
It's good to have family time and it's good to be able to switch between those two modes
in your head. I was forced to separate it when I got – a little bit after I got married
but you know, we were working from our house. Marshall: I remember. Stan: – Melissa and I and you know Sean and
John and some others were coming over to our house and we're all working at the house.

Marshall: I came there a number of times when
we were recording. Stan: Oh yeah. You recorded in our bedroom. [Chuckles] Marshall: T through our right. Stan: Eventually, Melissa was like "well,
you know, we're gonna have kids soon" [Laughter]. I was like "oh yeah". Okay. Marshall: Sometimes spouses don't want all
that to happen. Stan: Yeah. Yeah, there would be times – it's
like it's nine o'clock at night and Melissa want like you know, "I'm getting tired and
I want to put my pajamas on". Marshall: Yeah. Stan: "I can't, I feel uncomfortable in my
own house". So, I had to separate that and get an office and now it's really nice to
be able to just stop at a certain time and go home and forget, and just focus on the
family. Marshall: That can be a set of opposites to
look at for what's important to you because my dad always worked at home and I didn't
mind that. In fact, I picked it up. My older brother and I both, I have always
worked at home and I've never wanted to separate the two except you know, you got to have a
separate studio.

And two of his sons didn't do that and my son, I asked him "did it bother
you that -". You know, he'd wake up anytime in the night, 2-3 in the morning, I was always
in my studio working. He said "actually, I kind of liked it". There's something, you're
sleeping and you know that there's a grown-up who's up and looking over the fort and taking
care of everything. But he also, he also said, "I do not want
a job where I do it at home". And he became really big on I want to separate, I'm at work
and then I'm home and they're two separate things.

Stan: So, you were working at night while
he's sleeping? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: When he woke up, and in the morning
and afternoon, what were you doing? Marshall: I was sleeping. Stan: When were you with him? Marshall: Pardon. Stan: When were you with him? Marshall: I was with him every night. Stan: In the evening. Marshall: Yeah. All through his early childhood,
I was the guy who put him to bed, which was a great ritual. I was the up-late guy. Home
away from home… Oh, here was the point I wanted to make; some people love to work at
home. There are writers who love to work at home. I know a couple, everywhere they went
they worked and they were a writing team. And other people want a clear separation between
the two and some people are somewhere in between.

But there is something about the ritual, about
that if my work is out there in the guest house and I got to go from the house where
the house things happen and I walk across that area over to that guest house, I've done
the ritual where I'm walking to work. You did it with walking to work. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Something that separates the two
is a nice thing to have. Stan: School can provide that. You have your
dormitory but then you also can go and you can work somewhere else. But you don't need
school, you can go to the library if you're living with a bunch of roommates and you can't
focus in your apartment because it's always noisy.

My point is, go find a place where
you can work, where you could separate that social thing from the work where you can draw,
and it can be a coffee shop, a co-working space, a library… Whatever. Marshall: OK. This brings up an element of
healthy community. Healthy community has boundaries. I remember a couple of colleagues that I really
admired and watching how they would have conversation, they'd be really working in the same office,
sometimes three of them in one office. And then one of them said "OK, conversation is
over, I'm gonna zone out". He put on his headphones and he go – and you knew not to bother him
while he's going to be concentrating on this thing he's doing. But here's what I started to get from them,
they were really respectful of that I want private time now, don't bother me, this is
gonna be my lair time and everybody has that option so that you do not break someone's
concentration and that's something worth discussing with your peers, how do we do this zone out?
Go into the museum a number of times in these last few weeks.

The rule is, there is no rule except that
you are free to say "I want to separate from the group and go concentrate", or if you say
"oh gosh! I want to show you some things", asking whether it's okay. Stan: Yeah, but there's something about being
in the same room still, even if you're zoning out, that might make you want to just go and
participate in that. Marshall: Boundaries should be discussed in
advance. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: When is it okay to interrupt? When
is it not okay to interrupt? I don't mind if you interrupt under these circumstances…
I do mind and I'm asking you not to interrupt under these circumstances. It's not that hard
to discuss, although some people feel weird about it. Gosh, we're talking about the relationship,
yeah, we're talking about the relationship so that it can be long-term and healthy.

Now, let me mention something; we had a student
who was also in an area where he couldn't be employed, who was one of our best online
artists. He was so talented. And the idea is that we'll get together and three of us
will be in one apartment. After that happened, a year and a half into it, I talked with one
of his roommates who told me he was the roommate from hell. Stan: Why. Marshall: He was the guy who will eat your
stuff in the refrigerator, he is the guy who will borrow your car… "can I borrow your
car, I need to go…", and then two days later, comes back and you had no access to get hold
of him and you had no access to your car and he thinks it's okay and he ruined his reputation
because he did not respect boundaries, because he was just – he just damaged his – everybody
knows him for those worst things about him that all we could say "oh he was yeah, he's
was a really good artist" but nobody wants anything to do with him and you'd never refer
him to a job.

That was the kind of thing that those ground
rules at the beginning of the relationships of what is and it's not. It's not like with
dogs where you pick it up emotionally. That there is that but there's also the ground
rules of how it works in relationships. Stan: Would the ground rules even make a difference
if you have a roommate like that? Marshall: No, with a roommate like that, they
might not. But it was also – here's an advantage of discussing boundaries in an advance, like
with a contract, it's that we have an agreement that this is not what you do and you've done
it, so don't do it anymore.

And if the person responds "yeah, yeah, I won't do that anymore".
That's great, that means that they can be part of this community. But if they make excuses for it, they don't
take responsibility for it, then you have objective grounds to say "you are damaging
our community", and it's particularly difficult when you have several people living in one
space, that's where the real friction and rubbing against each other can be and that's
what happens when you don't have money.

You ever notice that the more money people
have, the more they will make it so that you've got your own bathroom, your own room, you've
got all this control over your environment, and the less money you have, the more you
have to share it with several roommates and share a bathroom with several people. Stan: Right. Well, it's because space is what
you're paying for. Marshall: Yeah. Equipment and workspace, equipment
can be cheap and you can gradually earn more… Workspace, what did we solve with work space? Stan: We gave some advice, some tips. Marshall: We did, but a lot of it was "hey,
I had a privileged work space", "yeah, I had a privilege work space too". Donald didn't. Stan: No, not all of it. Marshall: No, not all of it. Stan: You know, seek out a work space [Chuckles].
Coffee shops. Marshall: Part of it was let the pain be a
motivator. Stan: Part of it, yeah. Marshall: Part of it is that if you're in
community with people in limited work space, you put energy and even beforehand, as much
as you can and regularly giving a feedback loop of how we doing with our workspace; who's
uncomfortable? Who is feeling like they're not getting what they want so you've got good
communication when you have to share workspace.

But we haven't even mentioned a huge resource
for most people in many parts of the world, not all. Stan: What's that? Marshall: The library. Stan: Well, I mentioned you can go to library
to work. Marshall: Yeah… Stan: But it's also the resource for books
I guess yeah. Marshall: Libraries were going out for a while
because Barnes & Noble and Borders and that kind of thing, you could go there and they
had places you could sit and they got a coffee shop and all that.

I remember our local libraries
were just shriveling and they were kind of miserable places to go to. And in the last
year, I have used the library more than I ever have in my life because I can now order
online at 3:00 in the morning, I could say "do you got it there?", good I want to put
a hold on it and they save it for me and so, I go to my local library and I get stuff from
all over this place. And another thing good about the library is
that you've got a due date, so you are more motivated, since I don't own this and put
it on the shelf and say "I got it, I'll get to it someday", I got to get it back or I
got to go through the trouble of renewing it… Stan: Knowing me though, I would just put
it somewhere and then a year later I'd be like "oh, crap!"…

Marshall: I owe it. Stan: "I owe money". [Chuckles] That was me
actually. I had a lot of fines with libraries. Marshall: Libraries could be free air conditioning.
Library could be free heating. Stan: Or heating. Marshall: That's right. Stan: Marshal… Marshall: Libraries often have little cubicles
that you can use. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: So yeah, the library is just wonderful. Stan: Computers with Internet. Marshall: J. K. Rowling. Stan: Typewriters. [Chuckles] Marshall: Yeah. Quarters in the slot. I wrote
down museums… I remember when I was at the Louvre, there were people that would set up
easels with oil paint and copy masters. Sketch books in museums can be really inspiring. Stan: Oh, yeah, that's a great resource usually.

Charlie: Just go to a museum with Cesar Santos
and had to pull out a… Stan: Cesar Santos does like museum tours
on his YouTube channel. But yeah, museums go – you could do master studies directly
from the original painting. You could get permission from the museum to actually set
up an easel. Marshall: Well, they won't let you do that
at Southern California museums very much because they're really, really strict security. But
let's say this, almost every museum has free days. Stan: I did. Marshall: Did you? Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Which museum? Stan: The Art Museum in Balboa Park. Marshall: The Balboa Park. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: The San Diego Art Museum… Stan: Yeah, me and Cesar Santos made a YouTube
video about it. We went there and we – we didn't set up an easel, but… Marshall: Getty will not let you do that. Stan: They let us film, we set up tripods
right in the middle of people walking around and we were drawing in sketchbooks, we took
up a whole bench. It was like a big room where we just kind of – Marshall: That's nice of
them. Stan: We called them the night before.

Marshall: Okay, so you got permission. Stan: Yeah, we got permission. But that's
what I'm saying, you can get permission. Marshall: Well, here's another thing though;
museums almost always have free days. In fact, they had a list of every museum
in LA and when the free days are, they had it blocked in on a calendar so that if that's
important to you. Charlie: If you're in the UK, the majority
of their museums are free.

Marshall: Is that right? Stan: Well, too bad. Marshall: Yeah. We're not in the UK. Stan: No. Marshall: Gardens are great! I mean, if you
live in a place where the weather is good and you've got access to a park with a garden,
wonderful places to work. Mort Drucker who did all those caricatures of the movies for
the Mad Magazine satires through the 60s-70s-80s and even in the 90s, he would go into the
theater to watch the movie a number of times and he'd get – he just kind of imprinted – that
was kind of his workspace and he'd do sketches and worked this all out.

So, he was using the theater as a workspace.
What about software? Did you already deal with that? Stan: Well, that's one of the resources that
a school can provide you with is access to you know, like Linda, you know? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Online resources where you got your
training tutorials and stuff and software like Maya and whatever it is you need to do
your thing. Yeah, we – I don't know if I have a solution for that one. Marshall: I have a solution that's sort of
related to it maybe…

Charlie: Piracy? Stan: Oh, yeah, you're right. Piracy and there
are a lot of free things. Marshall: There is no rule that you cannot
spend the ninety bucks and four of my friends are gonna watch. Stan: It's probably in the Terms of Service. Marshall: That you can't show it to your friends
in your living room? Stan: In your living room, yeah, sure, yeah,
you can. Marshall: Yeah, you can't do it for profit,
you can't do it for broadcast. Stan: You can't like share your account login
information, that sort of thing. Marshall: Right. But we're talking about trying
to bring all these things together. I mean, if you learn from me for the twelve dollar
perspective course… The reason I made it twelve dollars is so that you could afford
it. That was one semesters teaching crammed into a twelve dollar course. But, don't share
it around, but share it with your friends if you say I want to learn perspective and
it's easier to learn perspective with two or three of us watching these, and then discussing
it and then getting creative.

Here's where it really turns into community. We're gonna
make up our own assignments and you make up your own assignments and when you do each
one of those Maxim's that Steve Martin gives about your career and then you stop it and
then you discuss it among yourself, there you are using the minimal amount of money
or sharing the money that we will take every course on the internet that we want and pool
our funds together to do it. And it isn't just that you get it cheap, you
get another thing that's even more valuable than a person who buys these things and never
watches them because they've got such an active social life elsewhere.

You are pooling the
money together and you are creating your community of shared language. Stan: Hi Marshall. Thank you for another wonderful
episode. Marshall: Thank you. Stan: Your welcome. Marshall: For co-hosting this Draftsmen Podcast. Stan: Thank you for half of the wonderful…
[Chuckles]. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Cool guys. That was Equipment, Resources
and Workspace, and what's next? Marshall: I think that we've exhausted what
we have to say. Stan: Yeah, the next thing we're moving on
to "If you do go to art school, how do you make the best of it", it's the one for the
people that are going. Marshall: If you've decided, look, I've sat
through episode after episode of you saying "hey, you don't have to go to art school,
you can do it on your own and it's like you have not convinced me, I'm going to art school"…

Stan: Or you haven't convinced my parents… Marshall: Oh, that's the thing, yeah. Stan: I'm going to art school. Marshall: Yeah, it's the parents that usually
need the convincing because they are old school. So let's address, you're gonna go the traditional
route. You're gonna go to art school and then move yourself into the career, I have a lot
to say about this. I have too much to say about this. We'll see if we can boil it down
to some useful Maxims to help make the most of the money you spend. Stan: Cool. Marshall: Okay. Stan: That's next time. Marshall: All righty. Stan: Give us those TikToks. Marshall: Yeah..

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